Episode 31: The Beatles v. The Rolling Stones

It's our One Year Anniversary, and we're celebrating by talking about something we haven't yet on the podcast: Rock'n'Roll! Winston and Emma talk about the two most important bands of the British Invasion, their different influences and legacies, and what wine each is more like. Listen to hear lots of bad British accents, a horrible wine pun, and some sappy retrospectives on our first year in business. Plus: John Mulaney, a real-life Vampire, Biodynamics revisited, Paleolithic Rock, the best thing America ever did for the World, Milton, Greek Goddesses, Grand Moff Tarkin, and Emma's brief career with Martin Scorsese.



Emma: Hello and welcome to the One-Year Anniversary Episode of Pairing, a podcast where we pair wine with Art and Pop Culture. I am your host, Emma Sherr-Ziarko, and for this momentous occasion I was joined, of course, by Winston Shaw, my frequent co-host and also husband, to talk about something that we have not yet talked about on the show: Rock'n'Roll! It's a battle of the... vins, if you will, as we talk about two of the greatest rock bands in history, The Beatles and The Rolling Stones, and what wine to pair with each. Now, right off the bat I'm gonna say: Winston and I are huge fans of both bands, but we are not experts. If we get something wrong, feel free to correct us. If we say something you disagree with, feel free to respectfully opine. But please don't yell at us. We're just doing our best over here to be coherent while drinking delicious wine and talking about sex, drugs, and rock and roll. There is a lot of laughter, and- you'll have to forgive- us some sappy retrospection in this one, so be ready for that. Also a lot of very bad British accents.

I would like to dedicate this episode to my mom! Because she, she raised me on this music and I would not know anything about it if it weren't for her.

I couldn't be more grateful to everyone for making this show happen for a whole year. Thank you to Winston, my co-pilot, to our artists Darcy Zimmerman and Katie Huey, to all of the amazing guests that we've had on the show, to our Advanced Producer Patron Mara Zobrist, who is more talented than Mick Jagger and Paul McCartney combined, and to all of our other gorgeous patrons without whom this show would not exist. And, last but not least, to all of our listeners, whether you're just joining or you've been listening since Valentine's Day 2018.

If you like the work that we're doing here and want to hear the show for many years to come come check us out on our Patreon at patreon.com/pairingpodcast, where you'll receive all sorts of rewards for a monthly contribution for as low as one dollar a month. If you want to support us in another way, consider leaving us a nice review on Apple podcasts. The absolute best thing that you can do is recommend us to a friend, or give us a shout out on the internet. Oh, and don't forget to join our Facebook group, where you can chat with other Pairing listeners about what they've been drinking and otherwise consuming.

One more quick exciting announcement before we begin: I'm thrilled to announce that I will be joining the incredible cast of Hit the Bricks, a new podcast that is a twist on The Wizard of Oz. It stars Michelle Agresti of our Gas Station Wines episode, so if you'd like to hear us not be ourselves, definitely come check it out and subscribe. I am very excited about this and I'm looking forward to working on it soon.

Without further ado, (opening chord) here is Episode 31: the Beatles and The Rolling Stones.

(Intro Music)

Winston: Hello!

Emma: Hello! All right. Winston, do you know what this is?

Winston: Nope.

Emma: This is our one year anniversary episode!

Winston: What the F!

Emma: I know! The first episode of Pairing we ever released was one year ago.

Winston: Aaah!

Emma: Not exactly, because, you know, dates and times and stuff changed, but this is about our one year anniversary.

Winston: I believe that warrants a kiss.

Emma: Ah! Mwah!

(They kiss)

Emma: And in honor of our one year anniversary, we're going to be talking about something that we haven't talked about, on the show before and it's

Winston: Not yet.

Emma: And it's incredible that we haven't talked about it and that is... Rock'n'Roll!

Winston: (sing-song) Rock'n'roooooll!

Emma: Namely, and, and so I love, you know, you know, I love a good wine pun.

Winston: Yes.

Emma: And so, you know if there's, if there's anything that I want a one-year anniversary episode of Pairing to have it's a good wine pun. And so this one I'm calling: Battle of the Vins! (long pause) Get it?

Winston: (simultaneous) Oh, oh, cause it, oh [crosstalk]

Emma: (simultaneous) Get it? Cause it, cause it, cause it [crosstalk]

Winston: (simultaneous) Oh, cause "vin" is in French!

Emma: (simultaneous) Cause vin, is, is yeah.

Winston: Yeah, no I got there.

Emma: [crosstalk] Yeah!

Winston: Yeah!

Emma: And so we're going to be talking about The Beatles

Winston: Versus the Rolling Stones! (Emma laughs)  Sorry. That was like a bad Michael Caine impression. (laughs)

Emma: (laughing) It's okay. It worked, it worked.

Winston: It's okay. There's maybe going to be a lot of chuckling and yelling in this episode.

Emma: (overlapping) There's going to be chuckling yelling. So we wanted to start out with a little disclaimer, which is that we both are much, much more familiar with the repertoire of the Beatles as a whole than we are with the Rolling Stones.

Winston: Yeah. I really don't claim to be an expert in either band. I, I do love their catalogues. I'm more familiar with the Beatle Catalogue.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: I, I do have, like, a little bit more like fun anecdotes about the Rolling Stones and I am obsessive as a fan of Shine a Light the Martin Scorsese documentary on the Rolling Stones

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah.  

Winston: And that kind of made me relearn how to love them and appreciate them more than I ever had. But I am- I don't claim to be an expert. I couldn't walk you through the albums. Like, if this was Bob Dylan episode, I could go from beginning to now and like give you the rundown on every epoch, but I cannot do that with the Rolling Stones

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: Really or the Beatles. I mean, I know some stuff, but

Emma: (overlapping) I'm pretty- so, I'm pretty- so, this leads me to what I wanted to say next, which is that I wanted to dedicate this episode to my mother! Who taught me everything that I know about music, and

Winston: (overlapping) Absolutely. To Deb Sherr.

Emma: To- to Deb Sherr, who first got me into like Motown: The Temptations, The Four Tops, Diana Ross, The Supremes, Otis Redding-who's not Motown, but- Otis Redding, Aretha Franklin. So I was really into Soul and R&B first, and then- though, you know, I grew up listening to like the LP of Sergeant Pepper.

Winston: Mm-hmm.

Emma: And so, so I've been familiar with the Beatles for a very very long time. And at one point I knew, like, all the dates, everything about them.

Winston: Right.

Emma: I've forgotten most of it and I haven't done all the research to like tell you exactly what date this- such and such thing happened.

Winston: (overlapping)Right, right, yeah.

Emma: But in general I am much much more familiar with the Beatles.

Winston: Yeah, there's not gonna be a lot of "well, actually" in this episode, you're gonna have to do that on your own.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah, you can you can do that. Well, heh, actually. (Both laugh) You know I'm always I'm always down for a "well, actually." But so basically, spoiler alert, there's not gonna be a winner. To compare the Beatles and The Rolling Stones is like comparing French and Italian wine.

Winston: It's exactly like that.

Emma: It's exactly like that. And, oh my goodness, look! I've got two bottles of wine here! One French, and One Italian!

Winston: What, what evil plan have I become a part of?

Emma: (overlapping) What- I know! How did this, how did this happen?

Winston: Are you Lex Luthor?

Emma: I'm basically Lex Luthor. So, for some reason I decided that- well, I have a more concrete reason for why I think the Beatles are more like French wine.

Winston: Aight.

Emma: Which I'll get into in a little bit.

Winston: Aight, aight.

Emma: The Rolling Stones... I feel, I feel like they're like Italian wine because, you know

Winston: They're swarthy?

Emma: They're swarthy, they're sexy, they're spicy. And even though there's variation, there's like a consistency to them. Like you can listen to it and you're always like, oh yeah, that's the Rolling Stones.

Winston: There is a consistency, but I also think they have that range that a lot of people don't give them credit for, where they can be quick and dirty, or they can be like slow and soulful.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: And they've definitely played around with genres much- like, that's more considered a Beatles thing, but the Rolling Stones have really done their bit. Yeah, I feel like the Rolling Stones, like Italian wine, can be good at, you know, nine bucks be good at nine-hundred bucks.

Emma: (overlapping) Mm-hmm. Exactly, exactly.

Winston: And, you know, the Beatles also have that going on. I just think that the Rolling Stones don't get enough credit-

Emma: They do.

Winston: -for that.

Emma: And so what we're drinking for the, for the, for the Stones,

Winston: For the Stones!

Emma: For the Stones! [crosstalk]

Winston: I don't know why I'm Michael Caine. (laughs)

Emma: It's okay, well, that's kind of what Mick Jagger sounds like, too, when he talks. Full disclosure, we just watched Shine a Light, the Martin Scorsese... documentary-concert-movie.

Winston: Yeah.

Emma: Which is awesome, If you haven't seen it. I actually hadn't seen it. I'd seen The Last Waltz which was his first in that genre.

Winston: Martin Scorsese's first?

Emma: Yeah, yeah, yeah, about, about The Band. But, anyway. So we're drinking Monterustico Piemonte Rosso 2015. Which I just bought on a whim. I'm not familiar with this one, 'cause I was going to get a Chianti but then I was like, I can't shut up about Chianti on the podcast I might as well.

Winston: (overlapping) Yeah. We cover it, we cover it.

Emma: But this is a cool one. So this is a blend of Barbera and Nebbiolo. It's good.

Winston: Yeah?

Emma: It's good, yeah.  

Winston: And it was what, like, thirteen bucks?

Emma: Something like that. Yeah.

Winston: Yeah!

Emma: It's definitely more Barbera than Nebbiolo. Like it's got that kind of dark fruit to it, kind of clean, not too much tannin, but it's still got that, that quintessential Italian spice.

Winston: Yeah. It's quick and dirty.

Emma: It's quick and dirty.

Winston: It's a very Mick Jagger wine.

Emma: Yeah, I bet Mick Jagger would like this wine. (Both laugh) What are we doing?

Winston: Diet Coke! (both laugh more) Also, watch John Mulaney.

Emma: Oh, yeah. (Winston laughs) Meanwhile, so the red wine that I chose is a Cote du Rhone.

Winston: They're both red wines, right?

Emma: They are both red wines. Yes.

Winston: Okay. But this is the Beatles wine.

Emma: This is the Beatles. (Liverpool accent) This is the Beatles-

Winston: (Liverpool accent) This is the Beatles red wine.

Emma: (laughing) Yeah. Yeah. And so this one is called Lunar Apoge, and it's a wine, it's a wine that I sold before but actually never tried, and so I thought this would be a cool one. And so basically my reason- slightly more concrete reason- for why I chose French wine for the Beatles is that I felt like the Beatles... They, they fucked around a lot and they kind of-

Winston: How do you mean "fucked around a lot"?

Emma: Like, for example, the influence of Indian music and the sitar and Ravi Shankar

Winston: So psychaelia.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah, and so they- I would say that, like, look at the Beatles in, you know, whatever 1962,

Winston: Right, right.

Emma: 1963 and what they-

Winston: "I Want to Hold Your Hand."

Emma: "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" to Abbey Road.

Winston: Yeah.

Emma: Within like seven years they changed so much and there was so much in there

Winston: Right

Emma: that were, I think, more vastly different in style than the Rolling Stones' repertoire as a whole.

Winston: Definitely

Emma: I would say.

Winston: They, um, to bring in  another album, they sort of "sparkled and faded."

Emma: Yes. Yes.

Winston: They burned bright and hot and fast

Emma: They did. (overlapping) They did indeed

Winston: And the Rolling Stones have just been on fire for about fifty years.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah. (laughs) Oh my God. It's incredible. (Winston exhales) It's, and it's, I mean, Keith Richards by all accounts should be dead a million times-

Winston: (overlapping) He is a Vampire.

Emma: He is a- he is the closest thing to a real, live vampire that we have in the world, which... I love, I love him.  (laughs)

Winston: I do too! [crosstalk]

Emma: He's ama- amazing.

Winston: And Mick Jagger is amazing too.

Emma: (overlapping) Oh my god.  

Winston: I mean at this point in their 70's, mick Jagger still runs six miles a day.

Emma: Yeah, it's incredible. But we'll get, we'll get to that. I just want to finish I just want to finish-

Winston: (overlapping) Okay. Sorry, sorry.

Emma: So the reason why I also feel like... With the Beatles getting into the hallucinogenic drugs and, like, more quote unquote "World music" influences... They were, this just reminded me a little bit more of, like, not necessarily the "Natural Wine" movement, which I've talked about a little bit and what's problematic about the quote-unquote "Natural Wine" movement. But, so, this is a biodynamic wine

Winston: (overlapping) Oh yeah, yeah!

Emma: and I feel like, I feel like the Beatles would be super into like Biodynamics.

Winston: (liverpool accent) Oh the cycles of the moon. [crosstalk]

Emma: Yeah the cycle of the moon. Yeah, in case you don't remember (Winston laughs) I, I've mentioned this before on the podcast but biodynamics: um, it's a very very old practice not just in wine but in agriculture and it's... it's quite complicated, but it basically has to do with planting, harvesting, and making wine in tandem with the phases of the moon. And burying a cow horn of- or a horn of cow poop in the ground as a fertilizer. There's all sorts of things going on.

Winston: There's like some American Gods stuff going on.

Emma: Totally!  

Winston: Where you're doing like  Old World rituals, which I'm down with.

Emma: (overlapping) Totally. Well, here's the thing that I

Winston: (overlapping) Like, go for it.

Emma: Here's the thing that I say about biodynamic wines, which is some people think it's all a load of... cow poop, so to speak.

Winston: Horse- horse manure!  

Emma: So, so to speak! But what you can definitely say about biodynamic wines is that the winemakers are paying much much closer attention to what they're doing throughout every stage of the process. And so there's a lot- you know that this is going to be a well-curated bottle. Because the thing about the Natural Wine movement... I mean, there's different things going on. A lot of what is happening in Natural Wines is the winemakers are like, "Fuck it. I'm just gonna throw some shit together and not do anything to it and just see what happens." And-

Winston: Yeah. I feel like natural winemakers are like anti-vaxxers.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah.

Winston: Fuck those people.

Emma: As Bobby Stuckey said they are the "Fox News of wines."

Winston: (overlapping) Yeah. But biodynamic wines?

Emma: But biodynamic wine: it's, it's a very old practice, where

Winston: (overlapping) Yeah, they're connecting us to history which I think is cool

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah, which I think is cool, and a tradition, and even if the practice... even if the phases of the moon don't actually make a difference- which, I think there's a lot to be said for, like, the science behind it as well.

Winston: Yeah.

Emma: Like, you might think it's just all mystical shit and whatever, but I like biodynamics, and I think it's fascinating, and for the most part biodynamic wines are delicious. Okay, so taste this one because I think that's really really good.

Winston: (Liverpool accent) Okay, this is our Beatles wine.

Emma: (Liverpool Accent) This is the Beatles wine.

Winston: Oh gosh. (Emma laugh) You Commonwealth people are gonna have to forgive us.

Emma: Oh, geez. I'm so sorry.

Winston: But we're not going to stop.

Emma: No, no. (laughs)

Winston: Mmmm.

Emma: That's real good, right?

Winston: I have to say,

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah, this is the clear

Winston: (overlapping) that is a little more complex.

Emma: It is definitely more complex. This is also one that I am more familiar with. The, the Rolling Stones wine, I am not as familiar with

Winston: Nah.

Emma: Which, to the Rollin-

Winston: (overlapping)Yeah [crosstalk]

Emma: (overlapping) we're bringing it together.

Winston: We're bringing it together, man!

Emma: We're bringing it together, man! You know,

Winston: (overlapping) Yeah it's smoother... And it's. You know

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah. Yeah, and so and I just, I just, you know, I'm more familiar with the Beatles as a whole. There's also less to be familiar with-

Winston: That's true, yeah.

Emma: -because they were only active for a very short amount of time, relatively speaking. The Beatle- or I'm sorry, the Rolling Stones, I was looking it up, they've released, like, thirty studio albums, twenty-six live albums, like, it is-

Winston: They never stop.

Emma: It is-

Winston: They never ever stop.

Emma: Insane. Insane. And so, I think it's appropriate that, you know, I just kind of picked up this wine and, it's, it's

Winston: (Mick Jagger voice) Grab it and go!

Emma: (MIck Jagger voice) Yeah, let's grab it and go! It's-

Winston: (MJ voice)We've got a show to do!

Emma: (MJ voice) We've got a show to do!

Winston: Eeuh!

Emma: Okay. So let's start by talking about, let's talk about the Beatles since we, since we-

Winston: (overlapping) Let's talk about the Beatles.

Emma: Let's talk about the Beatles.

Winston: Who are dope, by the way.

Emma: Oh my gosh. I mean-

Winston: I really mean no disrespect to either of these legendary groups

Emma: They're- they're unbelievable, and they were both so, so- the reason why it makes sense to talk about them together is because they came about arou- at around the same time

Winston: Right, as part of the British Invasion

Emma: Exactly.

Winston: But then they took radically different paths.

Emma: They, they definitely did. And one thing that we talked about, you know, if you're going to codify them a little bit more: Beatles are a little bit more, like at least they started out more as a Mod band, and

Winston: Yeah sorta Mod Pop, kinda yeah  

Emma: (overlapping) Mod Pop. And again, they then diverged and you know, you get stuff like "Helter Skelter", (overlapping) Within You-

Winston: (overlapping) Which basically helped invent metal, by the way.

Emma:  Yeah, and then "Within You, Without You," "Back in the USSR" like (overlapping) all of Abbey Road

Winston: (overlapping) "Norwegian Wood" [crosstalk]

Emma: You know, there's... So they, they really, they did so much and they grew so much.

Winston: Yeah. But they started as this like very manicured...

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: Sort of Mod Pop band, and Beatlemania

Emma: Mm-hmm

Winston: was very much this sort of British answer or the competing record label- or actually was the same record lable, I believe, that released the Beach Boys.

Emma: Hmm.

Winston: It was like the new hot thing.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: They were like, we're going to replace the Beach Boys with The Beatles

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: And The Beatles were like [muttered] "What the fuck?" Because they were like Michael Jackson. They were managed by their dad.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: And that's what

Emma: Well-

Winston: that's why the Beach Boys ended up doing Pet Sounds and all this crazy psych-

Emma: (overlapping)Not their- no they weren't managed by their dad. [crosstalk]

Winston: The Beach Boys were, not the Beatles

Emma: (overlapping) Oh the Beach Boys! Oh, I'm sorry,

Winston: (overlapping) but I mean like-

Emma: I was like, hmm, George Martin wasn't (trails off)

Winston: No no no no.  

Emma: Yeah (laughs)

Winston: No, I'm saying, like they, the Beatles basically came in to, like, knock the Beach Boys aside,

Emma: Right

Winston: and be the new thing.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: And that in turn led to the Beach Boys becoming way way better.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah.

Winston: Y'know, cause they had to up their game- I mean Brian Wilson's a genius, but that's neither here nor there.  

Emma: You're more of a Beach Boys fan than I am. I'm not like... I'm not like anti-the Beach Boys, and there are certain Beach Boys songs that I like a lot, but they do way less for me

Winston: (overlapping) Yeah

Emma: than either the Beatles or the Rolling Stones.

Winston: Well Brian, I mean Brian wa- he's like Beethoven. He's got that tortured genius thing (Emma laughs) going on you know. It's like, that's not, doesn't, it's not going to do it for everybody.

Emma: Yeah, yeah.

Winston: And neither does Beethoven.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: Anyway, the Beatles like burst on the scene like that, right?

Emma: The original... The original idea for this podcast- for this episode, by the way, was a different musical comparison- musical and wine comparison- which we might do at some point, but: Beethoven versus Mozart

Winston: Ooh yeah.

Emma: being Bordeaux versus Burgundy.

Winston: That's above my pay grade. You need to do that with like your mom or your dad or some (laughs)

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's, that's why we're not doing that. Because I feel like we're qualified to at least say something [crosstalk]

Winston: Opine!

Emma: Opine! Yes.

Winston: They're just pines!

Emma: Yes. Yes. So the Beatles came onto the scene. It was crazy. Beatlemania was nuts and, and then, I think, as... Once Rubber Soul and Revolver and Sgt. Pepper came out kind of from 1965 to 1967, I think,

Winston: Mmmm

Emma: that's where I think everything really changed for them. I mean, they were already growing. I mean like "Eight Days a Week" was a big, was a big step and everything that -

Winston: Right, and... Oh gosh. What's the one that "She was just 17"-

Emma: "When I Saw Her Standing There."

Winston: "With the Beatles"! No, I know. I know what the, the song is called, but it's "With the Beatles" is like their (overlap) album of mostly covers.

Emma: Oh! Oh, the name  of the album, yeah. Yes.

Winston: And that's where they do "She Was Just Seventeen," which again, is their "Fuck You" to all the other Mod Bands.

Emma: Right.

Winston: They were like, "I think we're going to record the best Mod song."

Emma: Yeah. (laughs)

Winston: Y'know. (laughs)

Emma: "We're bigger than Jesus."

Winston: Yeah, exactly.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah.

Winston: I mean, they have, they have very like... They have very Hip-Hop energy.

Emma: Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Winston: Both Rolling Stones and the Beatles although the...

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: You know, I think the Rolling Stones come by it organically, whereas the Beatles were just the most arrogant young men.

Emma: Maybe so, yeah.

Winston: Well, I mean like, I think you have to have a certain amount of egotism-

Emma: Oh, to-

Winston: -to succeed as a... an artist who performs live and/or  

Emma: Yeah

Winston: wants to mass distribute.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: You know, you gotta have a certain amount of belief in your own cult of personality, but anyway.

Emma: Totally.

Winston: Sorry I could ramble about this forever.

Emma: Oh man, so could I, so could I. But so what I would say, so, like I said, I grew up listening to you know old record- my mom's old records of, you know, like, Revolver and Sgt. Pepper. And I really got into the Beatles when I was like, 11 or so, and I had the "1," you know, the, the CD with their 27 #1 hits on it.

Winston: Yeah yeah.

Emma: And...

Winston: No Beatles 1 is a great CD.

Emma: Oh it's a great... Yeah, it's great, and... It's, it's in my car right now, in fact, we listened to it... It's a little scratched so it skips sometimes. But, but so it goes. Guys, remember CDs?

(Both laugh)

Emma: (overlapping) We're so old. We're so old

Winston: (pverlapping) Ah, they were terrible. CDs sucked I'm so glad we're done with CDs. Records are cool, and streaming is great.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: Fuck CDs, fuck tapes, fuck betamax, like all that shit.

Emma: Winston has strong  feelings.

Winston: Eight-tracks, or whatever.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: Nah. Fuck 'em!

Emma: Yeah. So I really got into the Beatles, you know, when I was like 11, and listened to "Hey Jude" on repeat for hours and hours and hours, because...

Winston: It's a banger. (overlap) C'mon.

Emma: (overlap) It's, it's a really good song.

Winston: It's an anthem.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: It's a banger.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: It's great.

Emma: It's, it's amazing. And, you know, I sang "In My Life" with my step-sister at my mom's wedding.

Winston:  Still one of my  favorite songs, by the way.

Emma: I, I believe that that is truly one of the best Beatles songs and one of the best songs.

Winston: One of the better three-minute pieces of music (overlap) ever-created .

Emma: (overlap) Yeah less than three minutes, I think. Yeah. It was, it's just wonderful. Yeah. And they just... The breadth of work that they came out with him in so small a time is incredible.

Winston: Oh and how much they influenced, I mean they really did.

Emma: Oh, yeah. Oh. Unbelievable. Yeah.

Winston: I'm not saying the Rolling Stones didn't but like we were saying earlier, like, "Helter Skelter"

Emma: Mm-hmm

Winston: really is a foundational piece of music for a lot of metal.

Emma: Yep.

Winston: You know, I'm not trying to discount the way that like Surf and other kinds of rocks sort of fed into that

Emma: Sure, sure.  

Winston: But "Helter Skelter" really sort of took it to a different (overlap) place.

Emma: "I got blisters-

Emma & Winston: -on my fingers!"

Winston: Yeah, like mathy-

Emma: Yeah

Winston: -crazy-

Emma: Yeah

Winston: -kind of, guitar riffs and I mean-

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: "While My Guitar Gently Weeps."

Emma: Yes, so once, so, I read something somewhere that, you know, like... You know, there's all sorts of reasons and rumors as to why the Beatles broke up, but one big one is that towards the end of their tenure George Harrison started writing more and more of the music. And it got very very popular, like "While My Guitar Gently Weeps,"

Winston: Right.

Emma: "Something." (overlap) And...

Winston: There were a lot of big egos in that group.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah.

Winston: And the Rolling Stones are too but somehow they managed to keep it together,

Emma: (overlap) They are too, but somehow they, like... Watching the Shine a Light video, it's, it's beautiful, 'cause it's like these old men, who should- by all rights, should be dead (laughs)

Winston: Right.  And I mean Keith and Mick and Charlie Watts and Ronnie Wood.

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah. And-

Winston: (overlapping) and whatever beautiful black man is their bassist.

Emma: (overlapping) And they're like hugging each other... Yeah! Oh! What's his name?

Winston: (overlapping) Like they give each other crap all the time.

Emma: Yeah. It's-

Winston: but they seem to just carry on and, and, and

Emma: They-

Winston: and do it.

Emma: They do and there's kind of... There's less of a feeling of taking themselves so seriously, I think.

Winston: Yeah, I think that's part of what it is.

Emma: I think that's part of it. I'm not saying that they didn't take themselves seriously.

Winston: Yeah. Well they do.

Emma: But they- but they don't-

Winston: (overlapping) They definitely act like Superstars, y'know.

Emma: Oh, oh, yeah. Well, but at that point, you know, Mick Jagger was 65 years old-

Winston: (overlapping) For fifty years (laughs)

Emma: -and like, in your words, is one ugly motherfucker. (Winston laughs) But he...

Winston: But he made himself a sex god.

Emma: Yeah!

Winston: A sex icon.

Emma: Somehow, he is like the sexiest person alive and (laughs) he shouldn't!

Winston: [crosstalk] You can disa- you disagree when you see photos of him and then you see him perform

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: And you're like, oh my god.

Emma: So that's the other difference that I wanted to talk about is that I think that, and we were talking about this earlier, but the Beatles were more of a studio band, and

Winston: They (mumbles) after their first few albums, yeah, they really became

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah.  Yeah.

Winston: I think more of a studio band, which is funny because so many people who love the Beatles also hate AOR-

Emma: Huh.

Winston: -Album-Oriented-Rock.

Emma: Ah, interesting.

Winston: Kansas, Toto, Chicago...

Emma: (overlapping) Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Winston: Like all those bands in the 80's

Emma: Yeah

Winston: that have like one or two hits.

Emma: Sure.

Winston: But that's what the Beatles did for like, four years at least-

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Winston: -if not seven.

Emma: While I will say, you know, I mean, there are certain Rolling Stones songs that, for my money, are some of the best songs ever written.

Winston: Yeah.

Emma: "Gimme Shelter," "Satisfaction,"

Winston: "Paint it Black"

Emma: "Paint it Black," "Sympathy for the Devil,"

Winston: "Sympathy for the Devil" is amazing.

Emma: You know-

Winston: That's the thing is like, I love Beatles albums, I think Rolling Stones have some of the best songs

Emma: (overlapping) I agree.

Winston: And there's only a couple Beatles songs that I actually like as much or more than a Rolling Stones song.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: Like, "In My Life" is one of them.

Emma: "Hey Jude."

Winston: "Hey Jude." The end of Abbey Road, like that whole montage-

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah. Yep.

Winston: -is amazing.

Emma: The compilation there, yeah.

Winston: "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" is up there. But, like, the rest of the time I'm kind of like, well, the Rolling Stone hits are really stand out, seminal pieces of Rock and Roll music.

Emma: I, I think I agree. I think I agree that, overall, I may be like fewer of The Rolling Stones repertoire than I like the Beatles.

Winston: Right.

Emma: But what the Rolling Stones put out, their quote unquote "hits,"

Winston: Yeah.

Emma: were like mind-blowing. Just to finish my thought from before

Winston: (overlapping) Please, please, please, please continue!

Emma: Oh, thank you! Thank you.

Winston: Oh, yes, please! [crosstalk]

Emma: Yes, but what I wanted to say was I agree with that about the hits versus the albums, but I also think that the Rolling Stones are very much a... The experience of watching them perform is entirely different than just listening to them. Because Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, Ronnie Wood they're... The show they put on is-

Winston: They're...Yeah.

Emma: -unbelievable.

Winston: They have superhuman charisma.

Emma: And they really do- that really does, like, epitomize to me, like... I mean, who knows? If the Beatles had stayed together and performed for more than a few years, maybe we'd say that too about them? But-

Winston: (overlapping) Yeah, maybe. But I mean, I like Paul and John Lennon both could put on a good live show-

Emma: Yeah, absolutely!

Winston: -in their solo careers.

Emma: Absolutely, but-

Winston: Ringo Starr's great. I mean, they're all good.

Emma: But the experience, but the experience of even just watching videos of The Rolling Stones perform is, Unbelievable.

Winston: Yeah, it's wild.

Emma: It's wild, yeah.

Winston: It's like it's like AC/DC and,

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: like, there's just a certain kind of charisma and sexuality, and... And then the other thing I wanted to say was that, the Rolling Stones really kind of went native

Emma: Uh-huh

Winston: when it came to coming to America.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: Like, the British Invasion, I think, really helped Rock-and-Roll grow, but it's an essentially American art form.

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Winston: It comes out of Jazz, it comes out of Delta Blues.

Emma: Mm-hmm.  

Winston: It comes out of these things, like Muscle Shoals, you know, all that stuff, right? And whereas The Beatles were like, alright, well, we're going to take some of that is influence, but we're also going to combine all these other things: World music and all these other...

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah.

Winston: And the Rolling Stones were just like, nope. We're a Blues-Rock band.

Emma: Yep.

Winston: And sometimes we'll be a Country band. Just, 'cause we're here.

Emma: (laughing, overlapping) Yeah, just for fun!

Winston: But, but like they embraced the American Music tradition in a very wholehearted way- and I'm not saying they didn't contribute to it. They definitely did and changed it in the process-

Emma: (overlapping) Sure, sure.  

Winston: but they very much embraced like, old, like, Muddy Waters.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah, there is...

Winston: Y'know they brought Buddy Guy on to play with them on Shine a Light!

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah.

Winston: They're completely dedicated to the same sort of Anarcho- not anarcho, I'm sorry- but like, the sort of Paleolithic Rock that, you know, Jack White is also trying to resurrect-

Emma: (overlapping) I like that, "Paleolithic Rock." Yeah.

Winston: -and profit off of.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: They really went for that, whereas the Beatles were like, we're gurus and visionaries and we're gonna change everything-

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah, yeah.

Winston: -and the Rolling Stones were like, Well, we have this thing that we're good at.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: And every once in a while, we'll show you how talented we really are. But the rest of time we're just going to put on a good show.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: (muttered) Which I, you know.

Emma: Right. So, so what I didn't realize was that the Rolling Stones started out pretty much exclusively as, like, a Blues Rock band.

Winston: Yeah.

Emma: And I believe the name of the, the, kind of, band leader at that point was Brian Jones.

Winston:  Right, this is new to me too. (overlap) Like I said, I'm not an expert.

Emma: Yeah. I was, I was just doing a little bit of research, because I didn't know this either, but for the first, first album or so that was their direction. Then Mick Jagger and Keith Richards- uh oh.  Kitties are coming in!

Winston: We've got a cat!

Emma: What was I saying?

Winston: You were talking about the original front man of the band.

Emma: Oh, that's right. So the original front man was... Or, well, he wasn't the front man. Like, Mick Jagger was always the front man.

Winston: Oh, okay.

Emma: But he was like the band "leader," quote unquote.

Winston: (overlapping) So like manager, slash guy in charge or something?

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah. Yeah, something like that.

Winston: Okay.

Emma: And then, and then Mick Jagger and Keith Richards kind of took over and they started writing their, their own

Winston: (overlapping) Right. Because they are one of the better songwriting teams.

Emma: For sure, for sure.

Winston: Because I, I think it's... That is another interesting contrast that I hadn't really thought about before, was that Paul, John, and George,  

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Winston: and even Ringo at a certain point,

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Winston: they all wrote songs, but it was very much like- you know, aside maybe from their pop stuff- it was like, Paul wrote this one.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: John wrote this one.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: Whereas Keith Richards and Mick Jagger (overlapping) wrote stuff together

Emma: (overlapping) They kind of wrote 'em together. Yeah.

Winston: A lot. All the time.

Emma: Yeah. Yes, that is a very good difference. You know, like, I think that Paul and John would work together a lot. But you can,

Winston: (overlapping) Yeah, they definitely did.

Emma: But you can very much tell, like, oh, this is a Paul Song (overlapping) or this is a John song.

Winston: (overlapping) Cause their styles started to diverge so much.

Emma: Yes, yes.

Winston: Whereas I think Mick Jagger and Keith Richards kind of-

Emma: They kind of-

Winston: stayed in harmony, even though they worked on a, like a huge array of different genres.

Emma: (overlapping) For sure.

Winston: "Far Away Eyes" is a Country- a great Country song, one of the better Country songs,

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah, yeah it's a great one.

Winston: I think. And, you know, and then there's "I Can't Get No Satisfaction." Like they, you know, they, they can do a broad range of stuff.

Emma: They, they really can. And, and so one thing, one thing I just wanted to talk about, because I was, I thought about this and I wrote this down, but: a few years ago, I went to go see Hugh Laurie in concert.

Winston: Beautiful.

Emma: Which you may not know, but Hugh Laurie performs music sometimes,

Winston: Awesome!

Emma: and he's amazing. He's a very, very talented musician. But he does mostly, like, Americana, like Jazz, Blues, Rock. And, he said in that concert... (laughs) I forget if it was "the best thing that America ever did for music" or "the best thing that America ever did for the world." Either way, I think it stands, it's true. But Jazz and the Blues are,

Winston: Yeah.

Emma: are the, the best thing that...

Winston: It's widely considered like the only purely American artform.

Emma: Totally. Totally.

Winston: I would say that American Cinema...  is an antecedent to most of World Cinema, even though the like the French dude, Lumiere or whatever, and-

Emma: As we were talking about before: I think that Cinema would have gone forward no matter what. It might look- it might look different than it does because of American Cinema, but Blues couldn't have happened anywhere but America.

Winston: No, it took, I guess, that horrible tragic-

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: -history-

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: -to make Jazz and Blues. I think, I think you're right.

Emma:  I it's... That's, that's my, my two cents.

Winston: [crosstalk]

Emma: So, yeah, and so the, the Rolling Stones are very much more... Besides, you know, some, a lot of their big hits, a lot of their work is very Bluesy.

Winston: Yeah.

Emma: You know? And, and that's, that's super cool, and... Yeah, and Mick Jagger and Keith Richards, they're, they're adorable.

Winston: Though, I will say this. I think the Rolling Stones, when they diverge from their Blues-Rock kind of thing-

Emma: Mm-hmm

Winston: -like with "Paint It Black"-

Emma: Mm-hmm

Winston: -or "Mother's Little Helper"-

Emma: Mm-hmm

Winston: -things like that, like, the Rolling Stones would address human darkness in a way that I don't think the Beatles did as much. Like, "While My Guitar-" "Happiness is a Warm Gun," "While My Guitar Gently-" you can argue like the Beatles-

Emma: (overlapping) I think-

Winston: -are artistically addressing some of the bad things-

Emma: So, what I-

Winston: -in society.

Emma: Yeah, yeah, that's what I was gonna say.

Winston: But The Rolling Stones are talking about, like, darkness inside a person and, and-

Emma: Yes

Winston: -finding new ways to express that. [crosstalk]

Emma: I think that the, I think that the Beatles were more socially conscious in their music, overall, while the, the Rolling Stones were more, kind of, introspective.

Winston: Yeah.

Emma: And, uh-

Winston: "19th Nervous Breakdown". I mean they-

Emma: Yeah!

Winston: A lot of their stuff is about mental health.

Emma: It is, yeah.

Winston: Which, considering all the mental-health shit The Beatles were dealing with,

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: it's never addressed.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: Yes, society, the Taxman, and like,

Emma: (overlapping) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Winston: all this stuff is- okay. I'm not making fun of that. It's great song but-

Emma: Oh, yeah, but-

Winston: -but they, the Rolling Stones really did sort of turn the eye inward and,

Emma: Yeah

Winston: and embrace that darkness,

Emma: Yeah

Winston: and do it in a way that a lot of people could relate to.

Emma: I mean there's, you know, I think there's exceptions to be made on, on both sides. Like, you know, "Yesterday," "Eleanor Rigby," those are...

Winston: (overlapping) Yeah, oh all the, yeah

Emma: Like I think Paul kind of dealt with some...

Winston: (overlapping) Absolutely. No, that's absolutely a great point.

Emma: And, Hey, "Hey Jude" too. And...

Winston: (overlapping) Yeah, "Hey Jude," but...

Emma: So, fun fact: talking about the Shine a Light movie, which we've been talking about, which is Martin Scorsese's Rolling Stones...

Winston: Concert film.

Emma: Concert film, homage. I feel like there's a word for it that he gives it, but- like The Last Waltz like that genre of concert movies, but-

Winston: Yeah, but I don't know what he calls them. (overlapping) But they're good.

Emma: I don't know. I don't know. They're very good. But so, fun fact: you can see yours truly, Emma Sherr-Ziarko, in the pilot of Vinyl, which  is Martin Scorsese's HBO show about rock-and-roll in the 70s and-

Winston: Girl in the orange dress!

Emma: I'm the girl in the orange dress standing behind Robert Plant next to Bobby Cannavale. (They both laugh) That was one of the best days of my life. 'Cause I was just an extra on that. That was what I was in New York doing, you know, that- that kind of work and... And I got, you know, chosen for this because I had long wavy hair. You know that was pretty much the only requisite. This was for- it was for a scene at a Led Zeppelin concert.

Winston: Right.

Emma: And so I got cast as a groupie and I went in, you know, to do my wardrobe day and they dressed me, and for whatever reason they dressed me in a fairly modest outfit. You know, it was like a- a dress instead of like, you know a bra and some bell bottoms or whatever

Winston: Right.

Emma: And so I was in a dress, and so once we got on set they decided that I looked too modest to be a, in the groupie- the groupie group. And so I got chosen to be the record label intern.

Winston: Oooh.

Emma: Yes. And so you can see me in the background like with a little pad and pen making notes, with this other extra guy who was a, who was a hoot, who they chose to be a the record label manager. And so we're just standing in the background, and this guy was hilarious because he didn't understand that like he couldn't actually make noise. (Winston laughs) We were pretending to talk in the background of, like, this scene between Bobby Cannavale a and the guy playing Robert Plant.

Winston: Right.

Emma: So we kept having to, like, retake the shot because this guy was, like, actually speaking. (laughs)

Winston:  I'm surprised they were that tolerant of it. I've do- I did a couple extra things

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah, yeah.

Winston: where it was, like, if you didn't do exactly what they said first or second time, they were like, all right, buddy. Sorry.

Emma: Yeah, I think this guy just had-

Winston: If you didn't walk  properly [crosstalk]

Emma: -he had too much of a perfect look-

Winston: Aaaah.

Emma: -that they wanted to keep him.

Winston: He was part of the shot.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah.

Winston: Again, the tyranny of the DP's will never end.

Emma: Yeah, exactly. But at one point... So I was standing there and I knew that the show was, you know, a Martin Scorsese show, but I didn't expect him to be there. But at one point, you know, because I was in this shot, I was kind of standing there and that I looked over next to me and there was Martin Scorsese. And he was very nice. (laughs) He was very nice. At one point, I was like leaning on a fake Cadillac in the shot and I think he took a picture of me doing that on his phone. So there might be a picture of me on Martin Scorsese's phone.

Winston: Hmm.

Emma: Hit me up Martin! Anyway, I'm sorry. That was my self-indulgent rant.

Winston: (overlapping) No, that's awesome.

Emma: (overlapping) So I just wanted to tell the people about my, my literally... It was sixteen hours of shooting but it was, like, a three-second shot. Well, and I was in the concert crowd too but you can't tell that I'm there. But, anyway. [crosstalk]

Winston: So all right. Well, I guess if as long as we're telling self-indulgent stories, maybe you can find a good place to plug this in.

Emma: (overlapping) Mmm! Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Winston: But so... One of the things I do know about the Rolling Stones is that Ronnie Wood was not originally with the band.

Emma: No, he was not.

Winston: I don't, I don't know the name of the original rhythm guitarist.

Emma: I was looking it up. Here you-

Winston: Or even had one.

Emma: They did. You keep talking. I'm gonna find it.

Winston: But... So Ronnie Wood is the current rhythm guitarist for the Rolling Stones while Keith Richards is the lead guitarist for the Stones, right?

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Winston: And so, when Ronnie Wood was first hired as their guitarist, I think sometime in the early to mid 70s.

Emma: Might have even been later.

Winston: Might have been later, like 81 or something?

Emma: Might have been.

Winston: Right. So, I guess they were all hanging out at a party, because this is just how rock stars get down.

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Winston: But Eric Clapton was there and Eric Clapton was like on some drugs or just having a bad night or whatever and...

Emma: Or he was just Eric Clapton.

Winston: Or he was just Eric Clapton, whose main purpose in life was to, like, not be a dick to Jimi Hendrix,

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Winston: and to be a dick to everybody else about everything. But anyway, Eric Clapton is basically berating Ronnie Wood and going... Basically everything he says was like, I could have had your job! Like, they offered me your job and I turned it down because I'm a much better guitarist blah blah blah blah blah. And the only response Ronnie Wood had to all of this, (Emma laughs) you know harassment and abuse was: Ronnie Wood looks at Eric Clapton and goes, "You have to live with these people, man." Which I think is hilarious and awesome.

Emma: (overlapping) I think it's great. Ronnie Wood seems like a very cool dude. He's-

Winston: Yeah, like, he's just he's, like I can just go with the flow like you're a-

Emma: Yeah.  

Winston: -egotistical piece of shit. (Emma laughs) "Y'have to live with these people." If you're gonna be in a band... You notice that there really aren't that many bands that Eric Clapton was in.

Emma: No.

Winston: It's Eric Clapton and the Whoever

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah, yeah.

Winston: Because he's an egotistical piece of shit...

Emma: Yes. Yes. (Winston laughs) So yes. So fun fact, so, so- or this is just kind of the little timeline of The Rolling Stones, because I wasn't aware of this as much before either... So I talked about Brian Jones

Winston: Right

Emma: who was the original guy, I guess, but he unfortunately died. I think he was replaced before he died in 1969 by Mick Taylor. Who was then replaced by Ronnie Wood in 1975. So, yeah.

Winston: Ah. So maybe he was the rhythm guitarist. [crosstalk]

Emma: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think that's what it was. Which also, fun fact, apparently: so, Paul McCartney is probably a much better guitarist than George Harrison was, but

Winston: (overlapping) Right. Yeah, you told me this and this is cool.

Emma: Yeah, it is cool. Because... But George Harrison couldn't play the bass, and so Paul McCartney was like, well, I can play the bass because I can do anything.

Winston: Paul McCartney's like, I can do fucking anything. Yeah.

Emma: (laughs) Yeah! So, so that's why Paul McCartney plays bass. And if you ever play Beatles Rock Band, which is super fun, and I did a lot with my friends in college,

Winston: Nice.

Emma: and I always would play bass because I'm really bad at instruments, and so the bass is usually the easiest. With Beatles Rock Band- both with Beatles Rock Band and any Red Hot Chili Pepper songs on Rock Band, because Flea is such a good bassist as well,

Winston: Right

Emma: the, the bass-lines are very very complex or complicated.

Winston: Well, yeah, I mean the bass-line in "Dear Prudence" alone.

Emma: Oh, yeah.

Winston: That is one of the most iconic bass-lines: (sings) "bum bum bada, bum, bum", you know.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: Like so, so beautiful

Emma: Yeah

Winston: and like an amazing take off of the walking bass line.

Emma: Yeah, yeah.

Winston: I mean Paul... Paul's musical genius is-

Emma: I-

Winston: -really sold short by the kind of cult of John Lennon.

Emma: Yeah, I think so too. Not to say that John Lennon wasn't a very talented musician himself,

Winston: (overlapping) Not saying he wasn't great!

Emma: But I do think that Paul McCartney's, like, musicianship is often overlooked because he was the bassist, and he was kinda quiet-

Winston: (overlapping) Or downplayed

Emma: (overlapping)or downplayed.

Winston: Well, also he was such a great songwriter, too.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah.

Winston: You know, and... But everyone's like "oh, John Lennon. Spiritual Guru." It's like, no, no.

Emma: No, no.

Winston: Not true. Nope.

Emma: And, you know... I feel like there's so many rumors enshrouding the Beatles, because... Well, that was al- that's also the kind of refreshing thing about the Rolling Stones is like, yeah, they're all junkie alcoholics, but they're up front about it.

Winston: Yeah! (Emma laughs) They're like, yeah, we're pretty much all in recovery from something except Keith who doesn't give a fuck.

Emma: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Winston: Who has his blood replaced every six months!

Emma: (overlapping) Who gets his blood recycled every six months so that he can survive. (they both laugh) [crosstalk]

Winston: Yeah, I mean, yeah. Exactly. The Rolling Stones are just like, we've just been  banging for fifty years.

Emma: It's really incredible. And they're-

Winston: And ever once in a while they produce this, like, history-changing song.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: I mean "Gimme Shelter," and "Sympathy for the Devil"... And also I think, it's not credited enough: at least in the Western literary tradition, The Rolling Stones are very well-read.

Emma: Yeah, yeah.

Winston: And they know what they're doing when they're talking about sympathy for the Devil, like, Mother's Little Helper, the- they're drawing on like Milton.

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Winston: They're drawing on "The Awakening," Oscar Wilde, all this stuff. The Beatles maybe had more like Far Eastern influences and stuff.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: But, like the Rolling Stones are a little bit less literary, maybe, than like Bob Dylan.

Emma: Sure.

Winston: The Beatles are kind of going off on like, an impressionist... And maybe it's just that they really got into the bodhisattvas and the sutras and stuff, and that was influencing a lot more of their stuff and I'm just a lot less familiar

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah, well their trip to India was very...

Winston: Right. Transformative.

Emma: Transformative, uh... Impactful to their career.

Winston: Right.

Emma: And so...

Winston: Whereas the Rolling Stones were just like, "I'm on a ton of cocaine, let's read Milton!"

Emma: Yeah, yeah, yeah! (laughs)

Winston: "Gonna write a song about the Devil!"

Emma: Yeah! (laughs more)

Winston: My Mick Jagger impression is actually getting worse!

Emma: Yeah, yeah!

Winston: (muttered) What is going on?

Emma: (still laughing) It is! Go back to Michael Caine! Yeah. Yeah.

Winston: Yeah. (Michael Caine voice) "Back to Michael Caine. I'm gonna write a song about the Devil."

Emma: There you go. One of the things that happens in Shine a Light, which I love, is when they're interviewing Ronnie Wood and Keith Richards and they ask- you know, separately- and they ask Ronnie Wood, they're like, who's a better  guitarist, you or Keith? And he says, "oh, I am." And, (both laugh) and then they-

Winston: Which- wait- which one says that one?

Emma: Ronnie.

Winston: Ronnie! Ronnie Wood!

Emma: And then they, and then they ask, they ask Keith and he's like, "Oh, we don't talk about that." And then they're like, "Well, Ronnie said that he's better." And he just goes (laughs) he's like, "Well, both of us are lousy." (laughs)

Winston: (laughing)"Both of us are lousy!"

Emma: "But put us together, and we're better than ten others." And it's just like, it's just beautiful. It really does feel like they're a band, you know.

Winston: Yeah, they do actually- even if they don't get along all the time, they seem-

Emma: (overlapping) I'm sure they don't.  

Winston: -like they work, they work together.

Emma: Yeah, yeah.

Winston: And that's... That's, I don't know, that's exceedingly rare.

Emma: Yeah, yeah.

Winston: In any profession.

Emma: I think so, I think so. And...

Winston: And to do it for fifty fucking years!

Emma: (overlapping) Fifty fucking years! [crosstalk]

Winston: With all the cocaine-

Emma: (overlapping) Oh my god, yeah.

Winston: -and all the, all the sexin' and all the whatever [crosstalk]

Emma: Yeah, who knows!  Who knows? It's just like, you look at Keith Richards' face and you're like, how the hell are you still here? But (laughs)

Winston: (laughs) Yeah. Well also like, he's marching around the stage, playing all this stuff, and like, he's got a cigarette in his mouth the whole time.

Emma: (laughing) Yeah! The whole time!

Winston: Like he and Ronnie Wood are just like chain-smoking during these concerts.

Emma: (overlapping, laughing) I know, I know! It's insane!

Winston: You know.

Emma: I'm trying to think about how to tie this back into wine. And-

Winston: Yay wine!

Emma: -the only thing I can think of is, you know, sometimes being a winemaker and, like, living that lifestyle, like, being in the restaurant world, or in the wine world, can be kind of similar-

Winston: Vicious-

Emma: -to-

Winston: -and competitive.

Emma: Vicious and competitive, but there's a lot of creativity.

Winston: Yep.

Emma: And a lot of ego. And a lot of drugs, often.

Winston: Oh, yeah. [crosstalk]

Emma: Especially in the restaurant industry.

Winston: But, you can- there's moments of harmony-

Emma: Yeah, absolutely.

Winston: -that create beautiful art.

Emma: Exactly. You know,

Winston: In the form of wine and/or food.

Emma: Yeah. And, and so that's, that's kind of what I'm thinking. I also... I'm just looking at this bottle of the, the Cotes du Rhone- The Beatles wine, the Lunar Apoge. Which is organic, and it says on the front, "Demeter."

Winston: Ooh!

Emma: Or, I don't know exactly how everyone pronounces it, but Demeter is basically the...

Winston: (Texas accent) I say Demeter because I was reading it-

Emma: De-Demeter?

Winston: (Texas accent) Demeter. Because I was reading it when I was like eight years old in Texas.

Emma: Oh! (Texas accent) Demeter when you were reading [crosstalk]

Winston: -out of the (?) or whatever mythology books.

Emma: Yeah, yeah.

Winston: So I was like, Demeter!

Emma: W-well Demeter-

Winston: Ceres!

Emma: Isn't Demeter the daughter of Persephone?

Winston: Opposite. Demeter is her mother.

Emma: Demeter is the mother of Perseph- oh, that's right, 'cause

Winston: (overlapping) She is the Harvest goddess

Emma: (overlapping)Persephone's the one who got sent down to the-

Winston: (overlapping) and in Roman mythology she's called Ceres,

Emma: (overlapping) That's right. That's right.

Winston: which is where we get cereal.

Emma: That's right. I remember this now. But so Demeter is appropriate: that's what signifies biodynamics. So if you see Demeter on a wine label-

Winston: (overlapping) Oooooh. I did not know that that's so cool.

Emma: Mm-hmm. It's a- it's a- (sighs) I forget exactly but it's like, it's like an organization basically. So if it says Demeter on it then it is legally-

Winston: (overlapping) Then it means it's like certified-

Emma: -certified-

Winston: -biodynamic.

Emma: biodynamic.

Winston: Gotcha, gotcha.

Emma: But I like that. And I kind of think that you know, the Beatles would like, you know, having Demeter... Even though that's a more Greek, Greco-Roman tradition. Or maybe since the Rolling Stones are so well-read, maybe they-

Winston: [crosstalk] I mean Demeter was the Greek version.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: I think I think they'd be way into it.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: I do think that maybe the Beatles would go for more like Artemis and Athena,

Emma: (overlapping) Mm-hmm. Which I was-

Winston: and Demeter, and Persephone like the sort of, like, cthonic and ethereal female gods.

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Winston: And then the Rolling Stones'd be like: Yeah. Aphrodite.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: And, uh, Minerva.

Emma: And Demeter.

Winston: Juno. I like her, because she's a bitch on wheels, (Emma laughs) and I like that, y'know. (laughs)And,like, I feel like they'd just be like, for the like raw power goddesses. Which Athena kind of does both depending on who's telling the story.

Emma: Yeah. Yeah.

Winston: If we're gonna, if we're gonna mythologize about it.

Emma: Well...

Winston: That's what I would say.

Emma: We'll have to get the Spirits girls on to, to weigh in

Winston: Yeah

Emma: on, you know.

Winston: I don't think either band is really that much into the male gods like...

Emma: Oh, no. Who cares.  

Winston: Maybe, maybe the Beatles have a little bit of Hephaestus, like, trying to craft new kinds of music.

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah, yeah. Maybe, maybe. Well speaking of: Listeners, I informed Winston that if he wanted to get me a present at any point to get me the Artemis Cabernet from Stag's Leap.

Winston: Yep.

Emma: Which-

Winston: Now it's on the record.

Emma: Now it's on the record. But if you want to beat him to it, you know, just let me know. I'm happy to receive that bottle of wine. (laughs)

Winston:  Though a buck towards your new computer fund would also be good.

Emma: That is true. That is true. Maybe this is a good time to plug our Patreon. (laughs) Also you can donate on our website.

Winston: We're already asking for money.

Emma: Yep. (Both laugh) I do need a new computer and that will make Pairing a better show if I have a new computer. Because right now, so much of my time is devoted to rending my garments and tearing my hair out when it doesn't work. So. (laughs)

Winston: I'll be at work and I'm like "la-la-la-la-la" (Emma laughs) and then I got this text message from- like first of all, she always starts with something sweet: she's, you know, she's like "hey, how are you doing? I love you!" And then she like, the next text message will be like, "I want to fucking break my computer over a, over a... brick wall! I hate this computer!" Because it just like sits there and wheels her of death all the time.

Emma: Yep, yep. It does.

Winston: It's not cool, guys. Not cool.

Emma: It's not, it's not a great computer, but-

Winston: It's old, it's old.

Emma: (overlapping) It's old, it's old.

Winston: (overlapping) It tried its best, but it's old.

Emma: (overlapping) It, it did. It has lived a good life. It is just nearing the end of this life, and I am trying to... weigh the options of whether it is worth it to get it onto its literal last legs and potentially lose some important stuff, or, you know... Head it off at the pass.

Winston: Well, knock on wood, I should be getting a raise soon once my law license comes through.

Emma: Which is hopefully happening soon, yay!

Winston: Very soon. Yes. And then maybe I can help, but... In the meantime, you're doing very important work and you need the hardware to support you.

Emma: Well, I don't know about that, but I, I, I'm doing my best. That's the other interesting thing about the Beatles vs. The Rolling Stones: I feel like, with the Beatles, you know all the Beatles.

Winston: Right.

Emma: Whereas-

Winston: Well at this point, the Rolling Stones are an orchestra.

Emma: Yeah, and-

Winston: They've got an entire choir.

Emma: (overlapping) Which, we haven't talked about-

Winston: (overlapping) Soul singers...

Emma: What's his name? Charlie Watt? Or Charlie Wyatt?

Winston: No Charlie Watt is the drummer.

Emma: I know, but so we haven't talked-

Winston: (overlapping) but the bassist-

Emma: Yeah, Charlie Watts. Yeah. Charlie Watts is the drummer who we haven't talked about, but he's also an original member of the band.

Winston: Yeah.

Emma: And he looks like...

Winston: He looks like a Sith Lord.

Emma: Yeah, (laughs)[crosstalk]

Winston: His face is so impassive all the time.

Emma: No, he looks like what's his name from uh, from A New Hope, the, the...  

Winston: Palpatine?

Emma: No, not Palpatine, but the the guy who Vader kills.

Winston: Oh! Wait, the guy who Vader chokes?

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: Oh, I don't even know who that  guy's name is.

Emma: Oh is it not, no-

Winston: I'm not that good at Star Wars.

Emma: No, you know, no, you know who I'm talking about. The evil guy in the first movie.

Winston: Palpatine.

Emma: No, it's not Palpatine.

Winston: Wait, are you talking about New Hope or are you talking about

Emma: I'm talking about-

Winston: Phantom Menace?

Emma: No, I'm talking about New Hope.

Winston: Okay.

Emma: And, you know, the guy on the evil space station.

Winston: Yes. Oh!

Emma: On the Death Star.

Winston: Grand Moff Tarkin!

Emma: Yes! Thank you!

Winston: Yes! I got there. Oh my God-

Emma: (overlapping) Grand Moff Tarkin! Oh my god.

Winston: (overlapping) I'm so sorry it took me that long. (Emma laughs) I'm so sorry.

Emma: That was really- also I was tempted to do-

Winston: Woof.

Emma: -the other, the other thing that I was tempted to do for our one-year anniversary episode was Star Wars versus Star Trek. But.

Winston: But we need Rafael Gamboa to do that.

Emma: Oh, that would be super fun!

Winston: By the way, you should totally watch his YouTube channel.

Emma: Yes.

Winston: Which is called "The Long Take."

Emma: "The Long Take." And he's got a, a short film that's been-

Winston: that's called-

Emma & Winston: Violet.

Winston: I believe?  

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Winston: It's been nominated for many awards. He's-

Emma: (overlapping) So especially if you're in L- if you're in LA I think you can go check that out at some festivals, but-

Winston: (overlapping) Yeah, yeah. You should watch it.

Emma:  Rafael's awesome.

Winston: (overlapping)Yeah, solid dude.

Emma: You will probably hear him on the podcast-

Winston: Let's hope.

Emma: -soon. Anyway, but... But I decided it was time to talk about music because- I'm going to do a little retrospective here since it's our one-year anniversary episode.

Winston: Please do! (overlapping)Proceed!

Emma: And I, and I'd love to hear your thoughts too. But, well, the thing is: 30 episodes happened really fast. Like,

Winston: You-

Emma: really fast.

Winston: -have the most amazing work ethic-

Emma: Well...

Winston: -of anybody I know.

Emma:  It's not even that, it's not even that. It's like, I ,when I started off the podcast I was like, yeah, and we're going to talk about- do you want the wine glass?

Winston: Well, I was thinking I would, uh, just put a straw in there.

Emma: I mean you can. (Both laugh)

Winston: No!  I'm sorry. Go on.

Emma: That's very- that would be very Mick Jagger of you.

Winston: Sorry. I  was having a-

Emma: Or more Keith Richards, maybe.

Winston: I was having a very nice beer from Whole Foods in celebration of my victory in a League of Legends game.

Emma: Yes.

(sound of wine being poured)

Winston: / the Rolling Stones are pretty much all about beer. Or at least they were.

Emma: I don't know. I think, I think the Rolling Stones... I mean, they might prefer to drink beer, but I think they...  I think they drink wine.

Winston: [crosstalk] I think it's like a listening thing, all right?

Emma: I think they're very classy.

Winston: You put on the Rolling Stones and you murder a 30-pack of Milwaukee's best, all right?

Emma: See, I think you put on the Rolling Stones, and ya drink a nice Italian wine from Piedmont, but there you go.

Winston: (overlapping) That's fair, that's fair. [crosstalk]

Emma: (overlapping) To each their own. But that's the point of Pairing, if I may, if I may just think about the, the past year a little bit. I mean when I started it out, I mean, I knew I wanted to started with with The Lord of the Rings as a way of talking about- a way of introducing wine, and talking about my favorite things in the world. And it quickly became apparent to me that both what listeners were more interested in, and just what was most accessible and exciting to me at the time, was more, kind of, books, films, TV in the Science-Fiction/Fantasy genre. And so, that has been the overwhelming majority of the episodes, which I certainly don't have a problem with. I'm thrilled about it, because I love talking about these things and I do actually, you know, choose what episodes we do. So, but, you know, at a certain point I was like, oh my god, we haven't done music, we haven't done- we've done one theater episode.

Winston: Which one was that one?

Emma: Macbeth with-

Winston: Oh!

Emma: -Zach Libresco!

Winston: And it was fabulous.

Emma: I very much enjoyed that one.

Winston: Yes, indeed!

Emma: Indeed! And so, and then-

Winston: Although the Gas Station Wines episode was also fabulous.

Emma: The Gas Station Wine episode is- I may not have said this publicly yet, but the Gas Station Wines episode with Michelle Agresti really changed my idea of what the, the podcast could be. And actually we did talk about music on that one!

Winston: (overlapping) Yeah.

Emma: We talked about like Britney,

Winston: (overlapping) Britney, yeah,

Emma: Enya... All the best, all the greats!

Winston: Yeah.

Emma: Which, bt-dubs, I don't know if y'all have seen the thing on, that's going around Twitter and Facebook about Enya, who like, lives in a castle with her cats  and doesn't (Winston laughs) like associate with anybody. I was like, Enya!

Winston: You won life!

Emma: You won life! (Both laugh) You truly are a goddess. I love her. I still love her. But you know, I really wanted to talk i- in more depth about music and, these things that are a little bit... I mean, I think the The Beatles Rolling Stones, that's a great way to start by having a, a little musical conversation.

Winston: I think it's awesome that you're branching out and I think it's- we're so lucky to have these amazing guest hosts who've come in

Emma: (overlapping) Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh yeah.

Winston: (overlapping) Between Schubes and, and Amanda and Julia and Michelle Agresti

Emma: (overlapping)  Mm-hmm. Gabriel.

Winston: Gabriel.

Emma: Sarah Shachat.

Winston: Sarah Shachat. I mean-

Emma: Lauren Shippen!

Winston: (overlapping) Oh my God Lauren Shippen, oh my god!

Emma: I'm so unbelievably lucky by all the people who have come to talk to me about things.

Winston: Zach Libresc-

Emma: Yeah, it's just-

Winston: It's just all these amazing people who have donated their time.

Emma: Yeah, and-

Winston: You know?

Emma: So thank you to all of them. We've also got a lot of really exciting episodes coming up with more exciting people that you'll recognize.

Winston: Yeah, not me. Training wheels off. Better hosts in.

Emma: (overlapping)Well, you're, you're still gonna be around.

Winston: I'll be around every once in a while.

Emma: (overlapping) You'll still be around.

Winston: I'll pop in. I'll be like, like a recurring guest star in like Season 8 or 9 of Supernatural.

Emma: (laughing) You're Jeffrey Dean Morgan.

Winston: (laughing) Yeah!  

Emma: I've never actually seen Supernatural, but I just know Jeffrey Dean Morgan is in it.

Winston: I'll be like Spike before he became a regular on Buffy.

Emma: (overlapping) Yeah, oh yeah. [crosstalk]

Winston: I'll pop in every once in a while and the episode will probably be great,  let's not kid ourselves.

Emma: Well, Winston. I hope that you will continue to be on, on the show on a regular basis. I couldn't do it without you. You are... I'm not gonna get that sappy, don't worry, right now. We just watched our wedding video again.

Winston: Good, 'cause I am! [crosstalk]

Emma: (laughing) Yeah! But, you know, Winston has a big boy job now. He is busy defending the public and defending the indigent, so... There's there's a little less time to, to make a silly podcast, but...

Winston: It's not silly podcast.

Emma: It- well, it's a little silly. It's important to be a little silly just like the Rolling Stones are a little silly. And even the Beatles are little silly.

Winston: Yeah, I mean "When I'm Sixty-four,"

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: "Yellow Submarine."

Emma: Oh, yeah. I mean we didn't even talk about Sgt. Pepper, but-

Winston: Yeah that's true.

Emma: But Sergeant Pepper is also to me one of the great albums, and-

Winston: I mean you could go through probably and pair each band member and each album-

Emma: Oh yeah.

Winston: -with different stuff.

Emma: Absolutely. (overlapping) Absolutely.

Winston: If you really wanted to be super microscopic about it.

Emma: Which, maybe as a Patreon bonus episode at the new $15 producer level, maybe we'll go- we'll do a little bit more in-depth-

Winston: Look at that!

Emma: Rolling Stones episode.

Winston: Off-the-cuff  marketing idea!

Emma: There we go. That was-

Winston: Be a part of the solution, people.

Emma: Yeah. There we go.

Winston: All I want to say is that: meeting you and working on this podcast with you and this artistic endeavor- any artistic endeavor with you, but this one specifically- has really been... Like, it's really been an upside of my life as I've been changing things. It's been a blessing,

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: and something I'm so grateful for and so proud of. And people ask me like what's going on and I'm like, "well, Emma's doing all these things!"

Emma: Yeah (laughs)

Winston: You know, and... And that doesn't mean that I'm not thrilled with my job and I'm not happy with what I'm doing. But, I mean, some of it's confidential and some of it's, you know,

Emma: Yeah

Winston: weird to talk about.

Emma: Yeah.

Winston: Um, but... Being able to be part of your creative experience and having the experience of creating things with you as an artistic partner is revelatory.

Emma: D'awww-ooh!

Winston: I'm never leaving.

Emma: Yay!

Winston: Not if you'll- not if you'll keep me.

Emma: Nah, you're, you're sticking around. This, this podcast would not exist without you. Hundred percent true. Because I-

Winston: Well I had to make a lot of mistakes to end up-

Emma: Well, we all had to make a lot of mistakes. And I think I've made mistakes on the podcast. And I think I've, you know, done things that I would change, but, here we are, and I'm so excited that we have 31 episodes now.

Winston: That's amazing.

Emma: We- we've been doing it for a year, and hopefully we'll be doing it for many years to come! And I hope that you will be with us on this journey, listeners. Winston: I could not do it without you. Not everyone is so lucky to be able to work with their partner in multiple, senses of the word.  

Emma & Winston: Cheers!

Emma: Cheers.

Winston: Cheers. Diet Coke!

Emma: Diet Coke! (laughs)

(Outro Music)


Emma: Pairing was created, produced, hosted, and edited by Emma Sherr-Ziarko, with music and audio recording by Winston Shaw, and Logo Artwork by Darcy Zimmerman and Katie Huey.

If you'd like more information, links, and clarifications on what we talked about this episode, please check out the show notes. Follow us on Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook, and Instagram at PairingPodcast to keep tabs on what we're up to. Come check us out on Patreon at patreon.com/pairingpodcast, where you can pledge as little as one dollar a month and get access to exclusive content, customized pairings from me, live streams and more!

Feel free to send us any thoughts, questions, requests, and pairings of your own on our website thepairingpodcast.com, via email at pairingpodcast at gmail.com, or on any social media platform.

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Thank you so much for listening. 'Til next time: read, drink, and be merry.